“Don’t worry about it,” he stated with smug, Pastoral confidence. “It’s taken out of context. Ephesians 2: 8-9 says that we’re saved by grace through faith, not works. Baptism is a work.” (MAAS ch. 5)
And yes, Ephesians 2:8-9 is here taken out of context. The whole context includes verse 10 as we read: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10 NASU
And yes, "baptism is a work." It is one of the very first works that "God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." There is nothing wrong with --- and everything right about --- doing good works. What is wrong is seeking to be justified by our works. Galatians 2:16 says, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law;" NASU And Galatians 5:4 goes on to say, "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." NASU
Please notice this last verse. It says "seeking to be justified by law." It does not say, "by the law," meaning THE LAW of Moses. In fact, looking at the Greek text, almost none of the verses in the book of Galatians which are translated as "the law" actually say "the law." In the Greek it us usually only the generic "law", not "the law." And in this last sentence, the translators correctly say, "you who are seeking to be justified by law;" --- any law, even the New Testament when decoded into a list of commands, examples, and necessary inferences, to be justified by --- "you have fallen from grace." Why? or Why not? Because in seeking to be justified by law, we are seeking to justify ourselves, by our own power in keeping the Rules or Laws. It leaves God out (almost) entirely.
“Mr. Mike,” Randall regained my attention as he landed in the book of Ephesians. “Chapter 2 verse 8 says, ‘For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.’ Verse 9 says ‘not of works, lest any man should boast,’ so you’re correct in saying that we’re saved by faith and not of works. But it is you, my friend, who is pulling this out of context.” (MAAS ch. 5)
“My friend,” Randall said, “if we try to go back to the Law of Moses, we actually fall from God’s grace, because Galatians 5: 4 says, ‘Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.’ Those Jews who became Christians at Ephesus were trying to incorporate some of the former laws of Moses like physical circumcision. They were fallen from grace and that’s why Paul emphasized not of works. He was talking about the previous works of Jewish Law.” (MAAS ch. 5)
This is wrong and not true. Here we have Randall pulling problems and meanings out of the book of Galatians and pushing them as an interpretation into the book of Ephesians where there is no evidence that they belong. Paul is not correcting the Ephesians for listening to the Jewish group promoting keeping the rule of Circumcision and the Law of Moses. If you read, and reread, the book of Ephesians, you will see Paul explaining how and why the Ephesians are able to live together in harmony, both Jews and Gentiles, in one body, in Jesus. There is no criticism; there is no correction; there is no condemnation in Ephesians.
In the book of Galatians however, Paul is blistering. In Gal 1:6-9 Paul writes, "I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!" NASU
The book of Galatians is all about how wrong it is to try to justify ourselves by keeping rules and laws, especially parts of the old law, the law of Moses, and even the covenant of Abraham (circumcision) which predates Moses. But even so, Paul does not confuse doing good with keeping laws, for he writes in Galatians 6:9-10, "Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. 10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith." NASU
The book of Ephesians is all about how Jesus's sacrifice has torn down the wall of rules and laws, the customs, which used to be a barrier of enmity (dislike, disgust) between the law-abiding Jews and the lawless Gentiles. It is about how, now, in Christ, the two groups have been made into one body through the love of Jesus. Picture this --- the little green clay figure of Gumby representing the Jews, and another yellow clay figure like Gumby representing the Gentiles. God takes the two clay figures and twists them together, molding them into a new clay figure, into one body. We can still see different parts in green or yellow, but there is now only one figure, one body. This is what Ephesians is telling us --- differences in culture don't matter in the body of Jesus. The Jews are still Jews (Acts 21:20), and the Gentiles are still not-Jews (Acts 15:17-21), but both can live and worship together in one faith, in one body, in Jesus. But they still accomodate each other's weaknesses or customs (Romans 14).
Friday, October 10, 2014
Books - Muscle and a Shovel ch. 4, Baptism now saves us?
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 3: 21). (MAAS ch. 4)
Or, as the New American Standard puts it, "baptism now saves you." But is taking that phrase out of its context really proof that it is baptism which saves us? Is that what this scripture is really saying? Even in the King James Version we know better. It reads:
"18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him." 1 Peter 3:18-22 KJV
Think about it. Was Noah "saved by water," as this seems to say? Did a flood save Noah? Even in the KJV translation we can see that Noah was not saved "by" the ability of water to save them. Who was doing the saving? It was God, who warned them and gave them time to build the ark, who saved them (obviously, because they obeyed Him). As the KJV says, "God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." But the words "by water" would have been better translated as "through water," as is done in other versions.
So, understanding that God saved Noah through the waters of the flood, or by means of the water of the flood, the phrases "corresponding to that, baptism now saves you," would imply that God is still doing the saving through the waters of baptism. This is completely born out because Peter goes on to say, "(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" Which tells us that what saves us is not the setting-aside (putting away) of the moral depravity (filth of the flesh) --- that is, a baptism of repentance of past sins, like John's baptism, is not what saves us. But a baptism of obedience to God from, or resulting in, a good conscience, will, by the same power God used to raise Jesus from the dead, save us through baptism. It should be clear that baptism, by itself, has no power to save anyone. It is God, working through baptism, who forgives our sins. Baptism, by itself, does not wash away our sins. Even Acts 22:16 which reads, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." KJV, does not end with "wash away thy sins," but adds "calling on the name of the Lord," indicating that Saul is obeying Jesus by being baptized in His name, calling on Him (for forgiveness); indicating that it is the power of Jesus or God doing the forgiving (Mt 9:6, Mk 11:25-26, Jn 5:25-29, Col 2:12-13, 1 Jn 1:9)
Another interesting side-note about this passage is the phrase "corresponding to that," NASU or "the like figure."KJV. The Greek word used here is antitupon, meaning corresponding, or antitype; this is from the root words anti, against or opposite, and tupos, a die(as struck) or stamp. So, the image we get is that baptism is the act of striking the die, leaving the image of salvation, Jesus, on our souls. As [God saved] eight souls through water, antitupon [God saves you] through baptism.
All right. Given that it is the power and grace of God which saves us, and not any power "naturally" occurring in the water of baptism, Is it at all possible for God to save someone who was not baptized into Jesus before dying? What does the Bible say?
First of all, what about the people under the law of Moses, who lived before Christianity?
We read in 1 Corinthians 10:1-5, "For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
Now it explicitly says "All were baptized into Moses." It does not say that they were baptized into Christ. Since, according to Hebrews 3:3, Christ is so much greater than Moses, if they had been baptized into Christ, the baptism into Christ would have superseded the baptism into Moses. But that is not what the scripture says. Instead, it says they were all baptized into Moses. Therefore, they were not physically baptized into Christ, but into Moses. And then it says "with most of them God was not well-pleased." This implies that with some of them, God was well pleased, and from this we understand that some of them were saved.
As the writer goes on to say in Hebrews 3:17-4:3: And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. 4:1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest ..."
So, from this we understand that it requires the opposite of this example to please God; that is, we should not sin, we should be obedient, we should believe, we should have faith. And some few of the children of Israel did have faith, as it is written in Hebrews chapter 11, concluding with: "39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect."
And what is it that was promised, that they did not receive? Peter tells us in Acts 2:38, "38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." The promise is that Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to live within us. This gift usually comes in conjunction with baptism into his name. Since, therefore, this promise was not given to any of the Patriarchs or to those under the law of Moses according to Hebrews chapter 11, we can say with confidence that none of these Old Testament examples were physically baptized into Jesus Christ. And yet, they are saved by faith, according to scripture.
Secondly, what about people who have never heard of Jesus or God?
When Paul writes in Romans 10:17-18, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; 'Their voice has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world,'" he is quoting the first part of Psalms 19 which says (paraphrased), "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows his handiwork. Day to day pours forth speech, and night to night declares knowledge. There is no speech; there are no words; their voice is not heard. [yet] Their sound goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world."
When he writes this, he is echoing what he said in Romans 1:19-21, "because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."
NASU
In saying this, Paul is telling us that everyone, whether or not they have the law, whether or not they have heard the gospel of the kingdom of God, the gospel of Jesus, everyone can know the basic truth about God: "Love the Lord your God ... Love your neighbor as yourself," and "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." As he says in Romans 2:5-16, "in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus." NASU
And in Romans 3:25, "This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;"
And (skipping over Paul's argument that it is the children of faith, not of keeping laws, who are justified by God,) he concludes in Romans 9:14-18 by saying, "What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." NASU
What shall we say to this? Can we, who are not God, demand that God may not save someone whom we deem unworthy just because they have not participated in the symbolic death of baptism; but have only participated in the actual separation of their bodies from the possibility of sin through actual physical death? Who are we to put ourselves in the place of God, the judge of the living and the dead?
Finally, what does scripture say about those who have died without knowing Jesus?
When Paul writes in Philippians 2:10-11, "so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." NASU, the phrase "under the earth" is a reference to Hades (Greek), aka Sheol (Hebrew), the place of the dead.
And Peter mentions this in 1 Peter 3:18-20, "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah," NASU When he says "the spirits now in prison" he is obviously speaking of the dead, since the example he uses is of those who died during the flood in the time of Noah.
And Peter continues this thought in 1 Peter 4:5-6 when he says, "but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God." NASU
So, at judgment day, everyone, living or dead, will have heard the good news of Jesus Christ, and will have been given the choice to follow Him. This, however, is not something everyone believes (or even has to believe, to be saved). All of us are somewhat ignorant about life after death, often believing only in the existence of a Heaven and Hell rather than in a Paradise/Hades place where the dead await judgement. But if we accept what little the Bible says about a Hades/Sheol place where the dead are, and the allusion (not illusion) the Bible makes about Jesus, in the spirit, preaching the gospel to the dead, then we don't have to worry about those we love, who have tried to live good lives, but died without being baptized, or without knowing Jesus. They will hear from Him themselves, free from the deceptions of this world.
Or, as the New American Standard puts it, "baptism now saves you." But is taking that phrase out of its context really proof that it is baptism which saves us? Is that what this scripture is really saying? Even in the King James Version we know better. It reads:
"18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him." 1 Peter 3:18-22 KJV
Think about it. Was Noah "saved by water," as this seems to say? Did a flood save Noah? Even in the KJV translation we can see that Noah was not saved "by" the ability of water to save them. Who was doing the saving? It was God, who warned them and gave them time to build the ark, who saved them (obviously, because they obeyed Him). As the KJV says, "God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." But the words "by water" would have been better translated as "through water," as is done in other versions.
So, understanding that God saved Noah through the waters of the flood, or by means of the water of the flood, the phrases "corresponding to that, baptism now saves you," would imply that God is still doing the saving through the waters of baptism. This is completely born out because Peter goes on to say, "(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" Which tells us that what saves us is not the setting-aside (putting away) of the moral depravity (filth of the flesh) --- that is, a baptism of repentance of past sins, like John's baptism, is not what saves us. But a baptism of obedience to God from, or resulting in, a good conscience, will, by the same power God used to raise Jesus from the dead, save us through baptism. It should be clear that baptism, by itself, has no power to save anyone. It is God, working through baptism, who forgives our sins. Baptism, by itself, does not wash away our sins. Even Acts 22:16 which reads, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." KJV, does not end with "wash away thy sins," but adds "calling on the name of the Lord," indicating that Saul is obeying Jesus by being baptized in His name, calling on Him (for forgiveness); indicating that it is the power of Jesus or God doing the forgiving (Mt 9:6, Mk 11:25-26, Jn 5:25-29, Col 2:12-13, 1 Jn 1:9)
Another interesting side-note about this passage is the phrase "corresponding to that," NASU or "the like figure."KJV. The Greek word used here is antitupon, meaning corresponding, or antitype; this is from the root words anti, against or opposite, and tupos, a die(as struck) or stamp. So, the image we get is that baptism is the act of striking the die, leaving the image of salvation, Jesus, on our souls. As [God saved] eight souls through water, antitupon [God saves you] through baptism.
All right. Given that it is the power and grace of God which saves us, and not any power "naturally" occurring in the water of baptism, Is it at all possible for God to save someone who was not baptized into Jesus before dying? What does the Bible say?
First of all, what about the people under the law of Moses, who lived before Christianity?
We read in 1 Corinthians 10:1-5, "For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
Now it explicitly says "All were baptized into Moses." It does not say that they were baptized into Christ. Since, according to Hebrews 3:3, Christ is so much greater than Moses, if they had been baptized into Christ, the baptism into Christ would have superseded the baptism into Moses. But that is not what the scripture says. Instead, it says they were all baptized into Moses. Therefore, they were not physically baptized into Christ, but into Moses. And then it says "with most of them God was not well-pleased." This implies that with some of them, God was well pleased, and from this we understand that some of them were saved.
As the writer goes on to say in Hebrews 3:17-4:3: And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. 4:1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest ..."
So, from this we understand that it requires the opposite of this example to please God; that is, we should not sin, we should be obedient, we should believe, we should have faith. And some few of the children of Israel did have faith, as it is written in Hebrews chapter 11, concluding with: "39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect."
And what is it that was promised, that they did not receive? Peter tells us in Acts 2:38, "38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." The promise is that Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to live within us. This gift usually comes in conjunction with baptism into his name. Since, therefore, this promise was not given to any of the Patriarchs or to those under the law of Moses according to Hebrews chapter 11, we can say with confidence that none of these Old Testament examples were physically baptized into Jesus Christ. And yet, they are saved by faith, according to scripture.
Secondly, what about people who have never heard of Jesus or God?
When Paul writes in Romans 10:17-18, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; 'Their voice has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world,'" he is quoting the first part of Psalms 19 which says (paraphrased), "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows his handiwork. Day to day pours forth speech, and night to night declares knowledge. There is no speech; there are no words; their voice is not heard. [yet] Their sound goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world."
When he writes this, he is echoing what he said in Romans 1:19-21, "because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."
NASU
In saying this, Paul is telling us that everyone, whether or not they have the law, whether or not they have heard the gospel of the kingdom of God, the gospel of Jesus, everyone can know the basic truth about God: "Love the Lord your God ... Love your neighbor as yourself," and "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." As he says in Romans 2:5-16, "in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus." NASU
And in Romans 3:25, "This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;"
And (skipping over Paul's argument that it is the children of faith, not of keeping laws, who are justified by God,) he concludes in Romans 9:14-18 by saying, "What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." NASU
What shall we say to this? Can we, who are not God, demand that God may not save someone whom we deem unworthy just because they have not participated in the symbolic death of baptism; but have only participated in the actual separation of their bodies from the possibility of sin through actual physical death? Who are we to put ourselves in the place of God, the judge of the living and the dead?
Finally, what does scripture say about those who have died without knowing Jesus?
When Paul writes in Philippians 2:10-11, "so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." NASU, the phrase "under the earth" is a reference to Hades (Greek), aka Sheol (Hebrew), the place of the dead.
And Peter mentions this in 1 Peter 3:18-20, "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah," NASU When he says "the spirits now in prison" he is obviously speaking of the dead, since the example he uses is of those who died during the flood in the time of Noah.
And Peter continues this thought in 1 Peter 4:5-6 when he says, "but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God." NASU
So, at judgment day, everyone, living or dead, will have heard the good news of Jesus Christ, and will have been given the choice to follow Him. This, however, is not something everyone believes (or even has to believe, to be saved). All of us are somewhat ignorant about life after death, often believing only in the existence of a Heaven and Hell rather than in a Paradise/Hades place where the dead await judgement. But if we accept what little the Bible says about a Hades/Sheol place where the dead are, and the allusion (not illusion) the Bible makes about Jesus, in the spirit, preaching the gospel to the dead, then we don't have to worry about those we love, who have tried to live good lives, but died without being baptized, or without knowing Jesus. They will hear from Him themselves, free from the deceptions of this world.
Books - Muscle and a Shovel ch. 3c, What is the Gospel?
"Randall smiled softly and said gently, '... don’t you need to know what the gospel is and how to obey it?' ” (MAAS ch. 3)
“ 'Honey, what is the gospel?' I asked her. She took a drink from her water bottle and said, 'Michael, the first four books of the New Testament are called the Gospels . Is that what you’re thinking of?' 'Uh, maybe… no. I don’t know.' Randall’s words from the Bible were stirring me, making me wonder. 'No, that can’t be it, because you can’t obey four books of the Bible. It doesn’t make any sense.' " (MAAS ch. 3)
This is the central theme of the book, "Muscle and a Shovel." What is the Gospel? And, how do we obey it? Unfortunately, Shank here dismisses the obvious, and mostly correct, answer, that the gospel is in the first four books of the New Testament, in the books which are called the Gospels. He says, "your can't obey four books of the Bible. It doesn't make any sense."
Of course it makes sense! Every state in this country, and every city in each state has a written book of statutes and ordinances which contain what we would call the law of the land. We, who live in these states and cities, are required to obey what is written in these books. We obey these books, by obeying what is written in the books. But the gospels are different than a book of ordinances. With books of laws we only have to know and obey them. But with the gospel, which is not a list of rules and ordinances, we have to believe it to obey it.
What is the gospel?
The word gospel is from old English, meaning “good news”. The Greek words are translated as “good news” in the Old Testament (Septuagint) and New Testament. But the Greek words are far more often translated “gospel” or “preach the gospel” in the New Testament. For example, “bring good news” in Isaiah 61:1 is read by Jesus as “preach the gospel” in Luke 4:18. The word “gospel” is in all of the gospels except John, in the book of Acts, in all of Paul’s books except Titus, and then it appears in 1 Peter and the book of Revelation. A form of the word is also transliterated as “evangelist” in Acts 21:8 and 2 Timothy 4:5.
How is the word, gospel, used in the Bible?
Many times just called “the gospel,” it is also called “the gospel of the kingdom,” “the gospel of Jesus Christ,” “the gospel of God,” “the gospel of the kingdom of God,” “the gospel of the grace of God,” “the gospel of His Son,” “the gospel of Christ,” “the gospel of peace,” “the gospel of your salvation,” “the gospel of our Lord Jesus,” and “the glorious gospel of the blessed God.”
Just for your information, the phrase "kingdom of God" and "kingdom of heaven" are the same thing. Matthew alone uses the phrase "kingdom of heaven" 32 times in his book, and the phrase "kingdom of God" only 4 times. Every other book in the New Testament uses the phrase "kingdom of God." This is probably because the gospel of Matthew leans heavily toward the Jews, and how Jesus fulfills so many of the Old Testament prophecies. Many Jews, even today, have an aversion to using or spelling the word G*d; thus the phrase "kingdom of heaven."
FYI, The gospel of Mark appears to appeal more to young people. It is short, and it usually goes into more details about the miracles of Jesus, spending less space with the teachings of Jesus. The gospel of Luke is more of a historian's account, trying for more accuracy in the times, places, and chronology of the life of Jesus. And the gospel of John is more a Christian mystic's gospel; it is more philosophical or spiritual, showing that Christ is God. All four gospels do have some things in common. They all recount some teachings and miracles of Jesus (but not always the same ones), and they all give an account of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Because the word gospel is most often used in the phrase “preach the gospel,” we understand that the gospel must exist, first of all, in words to be communicated.
So, where are those words? Mark 1:1 starts out, “The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.” From this we understand that the gospel may (at the least) be found in what we would call the gospels: the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. This conclusion is supported by Jesus saying in Matt 26:13, “wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be spoken of in memory of her.” (also Mark 14:9) We understand, from this, that the events of Jesus’s life, as recorded in the gospels, are part of the gospel. And we might, rightly or wrongly, infer from Jesus’s statement in Mark 16:15-16 where “He said to them, ‘Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned,’” that the gospel up to that point, including the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, is the whole of the gospel, because Jesus is now telling them to pass it on by preaching it to the world. So the words in the first four books of the New Testament are most likely where the core of the gospel is to be found.
But what do the gospels have to say about the words of Jesus? Jesus says in Matt 7:24-27, "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. …” And in Matt 24:35, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.” (repeated also in Mark 13:31 and Luke 21:33) And in John 6:63 He says, “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.” And in John 6:68-69 we read, “Simon Peter answered Him, ‘Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.’" And in John 14:23-24 we read, “Jesus answered and said to him, ‘If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.’” So we conclude that the words which Jesus delivered to us in the gospels are not only very important, but they are words of eternal life, they are eternal, and they are from God.
And here we run into the problem of little words with big meanings --- specifically, the word “of”. The Oxford definition of the word starts with “expressing the relationship between.” The best fitting meanings would be: “The relationship between a part and a whole” --- then the gospel is the (verbal) part of the whole (of the kingdom, of God, of Jesus); or “The relationship between an author, artist, or composer and their works” --- then the words of the gospel are produced by the kingdom, by God, and/or by Jesus. Using either definition, the words of the gospel are only a small part of a larger reality.
So, what is the gospel? The gospel is the key which leads us to Christ. As it is written in John 14:6, “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me;’” And in John 5:39-40 Jesus says, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.”
What is the gospel, and how do we obey it?
There are only two passages in the entire Bible that mention obeying the gospel. As the KJV puts it, "obey not the gospel." They are 2 Thessalonians 1:8, "...obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ," and 1 Peter 4:17, "obey not the gospel of God." Neither one of these passages uses the simple phrase [do not] "obey the gospel;" one says "the gospel of our Lord Jesus...," and the other says "the gospel of God." In either case the phrases "of our Lord Jesus," or "of God" tell us that "the gospel" is not the source of who we obey. Who we obey, as is shown in these two passages, is either "our Lord Jesus" who delivered the gospel to us, or "God" who gave the gospel to Jesus to give to us. So the real question is not WHAT [rules and commandments] we are supposed to obey, but WHO we are supposed to obey.
This is born out by other passages. We are to obey God as we read in Acts 5:29,32, "We must obey God rather than men. ... the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him." And we are to obey Jesus as we read in 1 Peter 1:1-2, "To those ... who are chosen ... to obey Jesus Christ." and in Hebrews 5:9, "And having been made perfect, He [Jesus Christ] became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation."
As it says in John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." And we know that "believing in" Jesus, also means obeying Him because verse 36 of that same chapter says, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." So, believing in Jesus includes obeying Him, and not obeying Jesus is disbelieving in Him.
"Believing in" Jesus is not the same thing as believing something about God or Jesus. James 2:19 says, "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." NASU. Believing something about Jesus, like He is the Son of God, is not always obeying Jesus. "Believing in" Jesus means, according to the Bible, obeying Him and putting your faith and trust in Him.
Unlike the law of the land, the gospel is not a set of rules and regulations to be obeyed, with dire consequences for failure to follow the rules; but it is a narrative of the life and teachings of Jesus, and how he (by the sacrifice of himself) has set us free from the condemnation which results from our breaking the law (Romans 8:1). Jesus condensed the law down to this: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." Luke 10:27. And Jesus gave only one commandment, and he repeated it three times: In John 13:34, "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another." And in John 15:12, "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you." And in John 15:17, "This I command you, that you love one another." NASU
The foundation of law in this country is written in the Constitution and Bill of Rights of the United States of America. In addition to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, we have the opinions of the Justice system, the judges and courts, interpreting how the Constitution and the Bill of Rights should guide cities and states in the creation of just statutes. In likeness of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, we have the written Gospels, the life and teachings of Jesus. In likeness of the interpretations of the Justice System, we have the history and writings of the rest of the New Testament, Acts through Revelation, teaching us how to live in the Spirit as we follow the gospel, and expanding on what it means to be a Christian.
The result of believing the gospel and obeying Jesus is not keeping a list of rules and commandments, but is living with the Spirit of God inside us. This was foretold long ago in Jeremiah 31:31-34:
31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the Lord. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the Lord, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the Lord, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." NASU
God says through Jeremiah, "I will put my law within them and on their heart I will write it." And this is echoed by Paul as he says in 2 Corinthians 3:2-6, "You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. ... God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." NASU
The point is that Christians are not under law, but under grace (Romans 6:14-15), and it is the Spirit of God within our hearts, Jesus Himself (2 Corinthians 3:17-18), who writes and rewrites the law into our heart as we learn and grow in faith in Jesus Christ. According to Romans chapter 14, what may be right or wrong for some of us is not the same thing which is right or wrong for others of us. What is wrong for all of us, is judging or condemning someone else for believing differently than we do. (Romans 14:13-15,22 and Romans 1:31 - 2:3)
“ 'Honey, what is the gospel?' I asked her. She took a drink from her water bottle and said, 'Michael, the first four books of the New Testament are called the Gospels . Is that what you’re thinking of?' 'Uh, maybe… no. I don’t know.' Randall’s words from the Bible were stirring me, making me wonder. 'No, that can’t be it, because you can’t obey four books of the Bible. It doesn’t make any sense.' " (MAAS ch. 3)
This is the central theme of the book, "Muscle and a Shovel." What is the Gospel? And, how do we obey it? Unfortunately, Shank here dismisses the obvious, and mostly correct, answer, that the gospel is in the first four books of the New Testament, in the books which are called the Gospels. He says, "your can't obey four books of the Bible. It doesn't make any sense."
Of course it makes sense! Every state in this country, and every city in each state has a written book of statutes and ordinances which contain what we would call the law of the land. We, who live in these states and cities, are required to obey what is written in these books. We obey these books, by obeying what is written in the books. But the gospels are different than a book of ordinances. With books of laws we only have to know and obey them. But with the gospel, which is not a list of rules and ordinances, we have to believe it to obey it.
What is the gospel?
The word gospel is from old English, meaning “good news”. The Greek words are translated as “good news” in the Old Testament (Septuagint) and New Testament. But the Greek words are far more often translated “gospel” or “preach the gospel” in the New Testament. For example, “bring good news” in Isaiah 61:1 is read by Jesus as “preach the gospel” in Luke 4:18. The word “gospel” is in all of the gospels except John, in the book of Acts, in all of Paul’s books except Titus, and then it appears in 1 Peter and the book of Revelation. A form of the word is also transliterated as “evangelist” in Acts 21:8 and 2 Timothy 4:5.
How is the word, gospel, used in the Bible?
Many times just called “the gospel,” it is also called “the gospel of the kingdom,” “the gospel of Jesus Christ,” “the gospel of God,” “the gospel of the kingdom of God,” “the gospel of the grace of God,” “the gospel of His Son,” “the gospel of Christ,” “the gospel of peace,” “the gospel of your salvation,” “the gospel of our Lord Jesus,” and “the glorious gospel of the blessed God.”
Just for your information, the phrase "kingdom of God" and "kingdom of heaven" are the same thing. Matthew alone uses the phrase "kingdom of heaven" 32 times in his book, and the phrase "kingdom of God" only 4 times. Every other book in the New Testament uses the phrase "kingdom of God." This is probably because the gospel of Matthew leans heavily toward the Jews, and how Jesus fulfills so many of the Old Testament prophecies. Many Jews, even today, have an aversion to using or spelling the word G*d; thus the phrase "kingdom of heaven."
FYI, The gospel of Mark appears to appeal more to young people. It is short, and it usually goes into more details about the miracles of Jesus, spending less space with the teachings of Jesus. The gospel of Luke is more of a historian's account, trying for more accuracy in the times, places, and chronology of the life of Jesus. And the gospel of John is more a Christian mystic's gospel; it is more philosophical or spiritual, showing that Christ is God. All four gospels do have some things in common. They all recount some teachings and miracles of Jesus (but not always the same ones), and they all give an account of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Because the word gospel is most often used in the phrase “preach the gospel,” we understand that the gospel must exist, first of all, in words to be communicated.
So, where are those words? Mark 1:1 starts out, “The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.” From this we understand that the gospel may (at the least) be found in what we would call the gospels: the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. This conclusion is supported by Jesus saying in Matt 26:13, “wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be spoken of in memory of her.” (also Mark 14:9) We understand, from this, that the events of Jesus’s life, as recorded in the gospels, are part of the gospel. And we might, rightly or wrongly, infer from Jesus’s statement in Mark 16:15-16 where “He said to them, ‘Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned,’” that the gospel up to that point, including the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, is the whole of the gospel, because Jesus is now telling them to pass it on by preaching it to the world. So the words in the first four books of the New Testament are most likely where the core of the gospel is to be found.
But what do the gospels have to say about the words of Jesus? Jesus says in Matt 7:24-27, "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. …” And in Matt 24:35, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.” (repeated also in Mark 13:31 and Luke 21:33) And in John 6:63 He says, “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.” And in John 6:68-69 we read, “Simon Peter answered Him, ‘Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.’" And in John 14:23-24 we read, “Jesus answered and said to him, ‘If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.’” So we conclude that the words which Jesus delivered to us in the gospels are not only very important, but they are words of eternal life, they are eternal, and they are from God.
And here we run into the problem of little words with big meanings --- specifically, the word “of”. The Oxford definition of the word starts with “expressing the relationship between.” The best fitting meanings would be: “The relationship between a part and a whole” --- then the gospel is the (verbal) part of the whole (of the kingdom, of God, of Jesus); or “The relationship between an author, artist, or composer and their works” --- then the words of the gospel are produced by the kingdom, by God, and/or by Jesus. Using either definition, the words of the gospel are only a small part of a larger reality.
So, what is the gospel? The gospel is the key which leads us to Christ. As it is written in John 14:6, “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me;’” And in John 5:39-40 Jesus says, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.”
What is the gospel, and how do we obey it?
There are only two passages in the entire Bible that mention obeying the gospel. As the KJV puts it, "obey not the gospel." They are 2 Thessalonians 1:8, "...obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ," and 1 Peter 4:17, "obey not the gospel of God." Neither one of these passages uses the simple phrase [do not] "obey the gospel;" one says "the gospel of our Lord Jesus...," and the other says "the gospel of God." In either case the phrases "of our Lord Jesus," or "of God" tell us that "the gospel" is not the source of who we obey. Who we obey, as is shown in these two passages, is either "our Lord Jesus" who delivered the gospel to us, or "God" who gave the gospel to Jesus to give to us. So the real question is not WHAT [rules and commandments] we are supposed to obey, but WHO we are supposed to obey.
This is born out by other passages. We are to obey God as we read in Acts 5:29,32, "We must obey God rather than men. ... the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him." And we are to obey Jesus as we read in 1 Peter 1:1-2, "To those ... who are chosen ... to obey Jesus Christ." and in Hebrews 5:9, "And having been made perfect, He [Jesus Christ] became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation."
As it says in John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." And we know that "believing in" Jesus, also means obeying Him because verse 36 of that same chapter says, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." So, believing in Jesus includes obeying Him, and not obeying Jesus is disbelieving in Him.
"Believing in" Jesus is not the same thing as believing something about God or Jesus. James 2:19 says, "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." NASU. Believing something about Jesus, like He is the Son of God, is not always obeying Jesus. "Believing in" Jesus means, according to the Bible, obeying Him and putting your faith and trust in Him.
Unlike the law of the land, the gospel is not a set of rules and regulations to be obeyed, with dire consequences for failure to follow the rules; but it is a narrative of the life and teachings of Jesus, and how he (by the sacrifice of himself) has set us free from the condemnation which results from our breaking the law (Romans 8:1). Jesus condensed the law down to this: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." Luke 10:27. And Jesus gave only one commandment, and he repeated it three times: In John 13:34, "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another." And in John 15:12, "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you." And in John 15:17, "This I command you, that you love one another." NASU
The foundation of law in this country is written in the Constitution and Bill of Rights of the United States of America. In addition to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, we have the opinions of the Justice system, the judges and courts, interpreting how the Constitution and the Bill of Rights should guide cities and states in the creation of just statutes. In likeness of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, we have the written Gospels, the life and teachings of Jesus. In likeness of the interpretations of the Justice System, we have the history and writings of the rest of the New Testament, Acts through Revelation, teaching us how to live in the Spirit as we follow the gospel, and expanding on what it means to be a Christian.
The result of believing the gospel and obeying Jesus is not keeping a list of rules and commandments, but is living with the Spirit of God inside us. This was foretold long ago in Jeremiah 31:31-34:
31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the Lord. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the Lord, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the Lord, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." NASU
God says through Jeremiah, "I will put my law within them and on their heart I will write it." And this is echoed by Paul as he says in 2 Corinthians 3:2-6, "You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. ... God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." NASU
The point is that Christians are not under law, but under grace (Romans 6:14-15), and it is the Spirit of God within our hearts, Jesus Himself (2 Corinthians 3:17-18), who writes and rewrites the law into our heart as we learn and grow in faith in Jesus Christ. According to Romans chapter 14, what may be right or wrong for some of us is not the same thing which is right or wrong for others of us. What is wrong for all of us, is judging or condemning someone else for believing differently than we do. (Romans 14:13-15,22 and Romans 1:31 - 2:3)
Books - Muscle and a Shovel ch. 3b, Obey not the Gospel.
"4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. 5 This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," 2 Thessalonians 1:4-9 NASU
"Randall smiled softly and said gently, 'Mike, when Christ comes back He’s going to take vengeance on those who haven’t obeyed the gospel, so don’t you need to know what the gospel is and how to obey it?' ” (MAAS ch. 3)
“ 'Randall quoted a Bible verse that said Jesus will take vengeance on everyone who did not obey the gospel,' I said to my wife." (MAAS ch. 3)
The book, "Muscle and a Shovel", complains a lot about how denominations take snippets of the Bible out of context to misinterpret them. But, ironically, so does this book.
To me, this statement, "He's going to take vengeance on [all] those who haven't obeyed the gospel,"(MAAS) is taking the phrase "obey not the gospel"(KJV) out of context. The words vengeance, revenge, avenge, and Retribution all imply payback for an original offense. Verse six says, "it is just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you."(NASU) This sets the context for the whole passage. So, to me, the phrases "do not know God" and "do not obey the gospel" are labels used here about those people who were actively persecuting the church. These phrases do not mean all the innocent or ignorant bystanders who don't know, or have not heard, the gospel. In the context of this passage, they apply to those who violently reject the gospel.
Paul, the author of this text from 2 Thessalonians, is the first to admit that he was among the worst of these kinds of persecuters (1 Cor. 15:9-10), but he repented, and God forgave him. In this text, Paul is saying that this "retribution" will happen when Christ returns with his holy angels. That is, after death. So the phrases "do not know God" and "obey not the gospel" are referring to those who continue to violently reject the gospel even beyond the point of death.
"Randall smiled softly and said gently, 'Mike, when Christ comes back He’s going to take vengeance on those who haven’t obeyed the gospel, so don’t you need to know what the gospel is and how to obey it?' ” (MAAS ch. 3)
“ 'Randall quoted a Bible verse that said Jesus will take vengeance on everyone who did not obey the gospel,' I said to my wife." (MAAS ch. 3)
The book, "Muscle and a Shovel", complains a lot about how denominations take snippets of the Bible out of context to misinterpret them. But, ironically, so does this book.
To me, this statement, "He's going to take vengeance on [all] those who haven't obeyed the gospel,"(MAAS) is taking the phrase "obey not the gospel"(KJV) out of context. The words vengeance, revenge, avenge, and Retribution all imply payback for an original offense. Verse six says, "it is just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you."(NASU) This sets the context for the whole passage. So, to me, the phrases "do not know God" and "do not obey the gospel" are labels used here about those people who were actively persecuting the church. These phrases do not mean all the innocent or ignorant bystanders who don't know, or have not heard, the gospel. In the context of this passage, they apply to those who violently reject the gospel.
Paul, the author of this text from 2 Thessalonians, is the first to admit that he was among the worst of these kinds of persecuters (1 Cor. 15:9-10), but he repented, and God forgave him. In this text, Paul is saying that this "retribution" will happen when Christ returns with his holy angels. That is, after death. So the phrases "do not know God" and "obey not the gospel" are referring to those who continue to violently reject the gospel even beyond the point of death.
Books - Muscle and a Shovel, King James, really?
“Mr. Mike, 'seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you, and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.' That’s in 2 Thessalonians , chapter 1, verses 6 through 10.” (MAAS ch. 3)
I stumbled over the meaning of 2 Thessalonians 1:7 where the King James Version (KJV) reads, “And to you who are troubled rest with us,…”
I did not understand "troubled rest with us" --- the rest of who? Is this a sentence? Is "rest" a verb? Troubled rest? Is there a comma missing? What does this even mean? Although the context helps to determine the meaning, it could have been clearer with more punctuation. If you translate the Greek into the same word order and throw in some punctuation, it might have said: “Seeing [it is] just(right) that God render: to them that trouble you, trouble; and to you, the troubled, rest, with us when shall be revealed the Lord Jesus…” So punctuation makes a big difference in our ability to understand what the meaning might be.
But even though the King James version is sometimes hard to understand, not everything about the KJV is bad. Yes, it’s full of thees and thous, but every one of those thees and thous is singular. It's the yous that are plural. We don’t have that kind of clarity in modern English which uses "you" for both singular and plural. And occasionally the punctuation in the KJV is better than more modern versions. For example, reading on in verses 7b-8a, the KJV says: “…when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,…” But there is a wide variety of differences in both punctuation and verse placement in other versions ---
KJV: “…with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance…
NASU: “…with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution…”
ASV: “…with the angels of his power in flaming fire, 8 rendering vengeance…”
BBE: “…with the angels of his power in flames of fire, 8 To give punishment
Douay-Rheims: “…with the angels of his power: 8 In a flame of fire, giving vengeance…”
ESV: “…with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance…”
NIV: “…in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish…”
[Note: KJV=King James Version, NASU=New American Standard Updated, ASV=American Standard Version, BBE=Bible in Basic English, ESV=English Standard Version, NIV=New International Version]
So, it looks like the more modern versions have placed both Jesus and his mighty angels in flaming fire. Only the KJV and Douay-Rheims (a Catholic version) use both punctuation and verse placement to put the flames of fire onto those receiving the vengeance from God.
But what does the Greek say? A word for word translation in the order of the Greek words, without punctuation, might look like this: “... the Lord Jesus from heaven with angels mighty his in fire flaming taking vengeance on-they not that-know God…”. So where would you put the “in flaming fire”? It falls in between "his mighty angels" and "taking vengeance". It is up to the translators where to put the comma. Should the punctuation be "his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance..." or should it be "His mighty angels in flaming fire, taking vengeance..."? I would side with the KJV on this.
The point is that, while the King James Version is awkward and sometimes hard to understand, even using more modern versions we still have to use our brains and whatever other tools are at our disposal to interpret the meaning of the Bible for ourselves. Which is one of the main points in the book, Muscle and a Shovel --- Read it yourself. We cannot always trust the translators to get the words right, or the printers to get the punctuation right, or the preachers to interpret it correctly all of the time. But thanks be to God, He does not save us based on the perfection of our own knowledge and understanding of everything in the Bible.
The book Muscle and a Shovel, however, appears to disagree with this --- it incorrectly assumes that all anyone has to do is simply read the Bible to come to the same interpretations that they have come to. The apostle Paul, in chapter 14 of Romans, would beg to differ.
I stumbled over the meaning of 2 Thessalonians 1:7 where the King James Version (KJV) reads, “And to you who are troubled rest with us,…”
I did not understand "troubled rest with us" --- the rest of who? Is this a sentence? Is "rest" a verb? Troubled rest? Is there a comma missing? What does this even mean? Although the context helps to determine the meaning, it could have been clearer with more punctuation. If you translate the Greek into the same word order and throw in some punctuation, it might have said: “Seeing [it is] just(right) that God render: to them that trouble you, trouble; and to you, the troubled, rest, with us when shall be revealed the Lord Jesus…” So punctuation makes a big difference in our ability to understand what the meaning might be.
But even though the King James version is sometimes hard to understand, not everything about the KJV is bad. Yes, it’s full of thees and thous, but every one of those thees and thous is singular. It's the yous that are plural. We don’t have that kind of clarity in modern English which uses "you" for both singular and plural. And occasionally the punctuation in the KJV is better than more modern versions. For example, reading on in verses 7b-8a, the KJV says: “…when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,…” But there is a wide variety of differences in both punctuation and verse placement in other versions ---
KJV: “…with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance…
NASU: “…with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution…”
ASV: “…with the angels of his power in flaming fire, 8 rendering vengeance…”
BBE: “…with the angels of his power in flames of fire, 8 To give punishment
Douay-Rheims: “…with the angels of his power: 8 In a flame of fire, giving vengeance…”
ESV: “…with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance…”
NIV: “…in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish…”
[Note: KJV=King James Version, NASU=New American Standard Updated, ASV=American Standard Version, BBE=Bible in Basic English, ESV=English Standard Version, NIV=New International Version]
So, it looks like the more modern versions have placed both Jesus and his mighty angels in flaming fire. Only the KJV and Douay-Rheims (a Catholic version) use both punctuation and verse placement to put the flames of fire onto those receiving the vengeance from God.
But what does the Greek say? A word for word translation in the order of the Greek words, without punctuation, might look like this: “... the Lord Jesus from heaven with angels mighty his in fire flaming taking vengeance on-they not that-know God…”. So where would you put the “in flaming fire”? It falls in between "his mighty angels" and "taking vengeance". It is up to the translators where to put the comma. Should the punctuation be "his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance..." or should it be "His mighty angels in flaming fire, taking vengeance..."? I would side with the KJV on this.
The point is that, while the King James Version is awkward and sometimes hard to understand, even using more modern versions we still have to use our brains and whatever other tools are at our disposal to interpret the meaning of the Bible for ourselves. Which is one of the main points in the book, Muscle and a Shovel --- Read it yourself. We cannot always trust the translators to get the words right, or the printers to get the punctuation right, or the preachers to interpret it correctly all of the time. But thanks be to God, He does not save us based on the perfection of our own knowledge and understanding of everything in the Bible.
The book Muscle and a Shovel, however, appears to disagree with this --- it incorrectly assumes that all anyone has to do is simply read the Bible to come to the same interpretations that they have come to. The apostle Paul, in chapter 14 of Romans, would beg to differ.
Book - Muscle and a Shovel, comments.
The book "Muscle and a Shovel" (MAAS) by Michael Shank is the 30-year-old story of his conversion from Baptist doctrine into Bible truth, as interpreted by Church of Christ tradition.
And yes, in this case I'm using capital "C" Church of Christ instead of little "c" for the church of Christ. I do this because I am referring to that group of people who identify themselves with the name Church of Christ (whether or not they spell "church" with a capital or lower-case "c") when they denominate themselves --- split themselves apart from other people --- because they believe that they alone are saved by the power of their own understanding and the correctness of their actions in copying a "pattern" of the church in the first century.
This has actually resulted in congregations splitting over whether to use wheat or white flour in the unleavened bread for communion, whether or not they must meet in an upper room, whether or not they may use two shared cups rather than just one cup instead of multiple cups for communion, whether or not people may give money to the church on any day other than Sunday (MAAS says no in Ch. 26: “Think about it, Mr. Mike. The first day of the week, according to Paul, is the only day of the week that we’re to lay by in store or to give back to the church, according to 1 Corinthians 16: 1-2.” Although Acts 2:44-47 implies that giving, "breaking bread," and baptizing were a daily occurrence.), and many other arguments over who has the perfectly correct interpretation of what God wants us to do in order to be saved.
I appreciate the fact that in this one book, Shank has put together a fairly comprehensive collection of teachings and interpretations which seem to keep recurring in the Churches of Christ. Having grown up in the church, I have heard these things since the 1950's, (although the ideas are much older) and I have grown to see that some of these interpretations are wrong, biblically speaking. It has been decades since I have heard some of these arguments, but here they are again.
In reading this book, I got the feeling that Michael Shank is trying to be a "shock jock" for doctrine (in a radio Disc Jockey sense), because he seems to delight in trying to offend anyone who believes differently. But he is right about one thing --- you have to dig deep and know your Bible to see where some of these things may be wrong.
So, if you are reading, or have read, Michael Shank's book, let's open our Bibles and look at a few points where the Bible itself may disagree with what Mr. Shank is promoting.
And yes, in this case I'm using capital "C" Church of Christ instead of little "c" for the church of Christ. I do this because I am referring to that group of people who identify themselves with the name Church of Christ (whether or not they spell "church" with a capital or lower-case "c") when they denominate themselves --- split themselves apart from other people --- because they believe that they alone are saved by the power of their own understanding and the correctness of their actions in copying a "pattern" of the church in the first century.
This has actually resulted in congregations splitting over whether to use wheat or white flour in the unleavened bread for communion, whether or not they must meet in an upper room, whether or not they may use two shared cups rather than just one cup instead of multiple cups for communion, whether or not people may give money to the church on any day other than Sunday (MAAS says no in Ch. 26: “Think about it, Mr. Mike. The first day of the week, according to Paul, is the only day of the week that we’re to lay by in store or to give back to the church, according to 1 Corinthians 16: 1-2.” Although Acts 2:44-47 implies that giving, "breaking bread," and baptizing were a daily occurrence.), and many other arguments over who has the perfectly correct interpretation of what God wants us to do in order to be saved.
I appreciate the fact that in this one book, Shank has put together a fairly comprehensive collection of teachings and interpretations which seem to keep recurring in the Churches of Christ. Having grown up in the church, I have heard these things since the 1950's, (although the ideas are much older) and I have grown to see that some of these interpretations are wrong, biblically speaking. It has been decades since I have heard some of these arguments, but here they are again.
In reading this book, I got the feeling that Michael Shank is trying to be a "shock jock" for doctrine (in a radio Disc Jockey sense), because he seems to delight in trying to offend anyone who believes differently. But he is right about one thing --- you have to dig deep and know your Bible to see where some of these things may be wrong.
So, if you are reading, or have read, Michael Shank's book, let's open our Bibles and look at a few points where the Bible itself may disagree with what Mr. Shank is promoting.
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